January 11, 2010 10:13:00 AM
Good grief. What is the city thinking?
Joe Johnson, the man who would be police chief, but who has been passed over three times, is starting the new decade with a tidy handout courtesy of Columbus taxpayers.
Rather than fight a second frivolous lawsuit, the mayor and city council decided last week to give Johnson and, presumably, his lawyer, Jim Waide, a $32,000 payment and a $10,000 annual raise. At $64,000 a year, Johnson, an assistant police chief, will make more than some city department heads. Should Johnson work five more years, that''s an $80,000 payout courtesy of Columbus taxpayers. It could go higher.
A 2002 study found the department with serious leadership deficiencies, effectively saying look elsewhere for a chief. The city did so and in 2003 hired J.D. Sanders. Claiming it was "his turn," Johnson sued. By the old order -- making chief the officer with the most seniority from within the department -- it was Joe''s turn.
But the rules had changed. Under the leadership of then-Mayor Jeffrey Rupp and guided by the ''02 study, the city conducted a search and found Sanders. The federal court in a 2007 ruling came down on the side of the city in the Sanders'' hiring saying there was no evidence of discrimination against Johnson.
Sanders left to take a job in Franklin, Tenn., and the city again conducted a search that resulted with the hiring of Chief Joseph St. John. Johnson was one of four publicly interviewed for the job. It was clear to many who sat through those public interviews Johnson was not among the top choices.
Undeterred, Johnson and Waide sued again charging discrimination. Rather than face the uncertainty of a jury and the costs of a trial, the city on Friday said, uncle. Maybe it was an economic decision. Not only is a lawsuit a time-consuming distraction, but winning can be expensive.
Even so, it stinks. Should St. John leave and the city were to again hire someone other than Johnson, would Johnson and Waide again sue?
Why wouldn''t they?
A Joe Named Sue commented at 1/11/2010 3:30:00 PM:
I wonder how many ways that money is split...5 or 7 ways?
Abraham commented at 1/11/2010 4:11:00 PM:
I am kind of an "outsider" (I moved to Columbus in 1999). But I think all of us should look at this situation from Mr. Johnson's point of view. It seems clear to me that there was a point in time when Mr. Johnson was more qualified than one of the former police chiefs who did not have a high school diploma. Was Mr. Johnson wronged for being passed over then? Has Mr. Johnson been acquainted with other cases where blacks were passed over when they were more qualified? If that is the case, then perhaps Mr. Johnson did not want "hush money", but he wanted to stop a trend where this county always seems to find a reason to reject a black person for a position. It is still fresh on my mind the words of Mr. Leroy Brooks who said that certain county supervisors have never appointed a black in their district. Could it be that the reason (why they have not appointed blacks in their district) is the same reason Mr. Johnson has been denied the position of police chief? And perhaps the citizens of this county should ask themselves whether or not it is prejudice against blacks that hinders them from seeing and acknowledging these points.
It is not my desire to offend anyone. I just hope all will think about what I have to say.
Justin Smith commented at 1/11/2010 6:52:00 PM:
You really need to read the OSS report that the city did in 2002. It is online and it IS available to read.It is, in a word, shocking.
Abraham commented at 1/11/2010 8:31:00 PM:
Do you have a link to the online report? Thanks for the info. I would like to read it and then I might have a question or two for you.
Thom Geiger commented at 1/12/2010 7:58:00 AM:
Google (or use any search engine of your choice) and search for the words "I have scanned most of the final AUDIT & ASSESSMENT". Include the quotation marks in the search box. You should see a link to the report.
Thom Geiger commented at 1/12/2010 8:05:00 AM:
To see online videos of the interviews for the candidates for CPD chief when Joe St. John applied, search for the words
"Videos of the public interviews, by the Columbus mayor and city council", again include the quotation marks in the search and you should see a page with links to videos of the public interviews conducted by the city council.
bear commented at 1/12/2010 11:06:00 AM:
I don't think you have to view any reports to see that this is ridiculous. Johnson shouldn't even be employed by the City of Columbus today due to his lawsuits, and, oh yeah, he shot an unarmed civilian. What are the findings of that investigation? Johnson is a joke, and the City of Columbus is moving at light speed toward the same.
gogetum commented at 1/12/2010 1:31:00 PM:
Abe is probably black so don't waste facts on him about Joe's case . If he's been here since 99 and says he is an outsider? He's inside enough to drink the 'Mr. Leroy Brooks' cool aid and sounds like he is one of the Brook cronies already, group of racist so I hear.
Ur Right commented at 1/12/2010 5:43:00 PM:
gogetum- Ur right! Its a color thing, they just want free money, they can't do the job, not qualified, shoot ya and ask later, take the money and run, type of people. Most are all the same. Reverse Racist, they all are. They are ignorant and cant see what they are really doing to society.
sotired commented at 1/13/2010 2:47:00 PM:
gogetum is obviously white. "Its a color thing, they just want free money, they can't do the job, not qualified...type of people". Most are all the same"...You can't be serious! I've seen many instances positions and promotions being "given" and not earned, while we the "type of people" you mention work hard to no avail in most cases.
gogetum commented at 1/13/2010 5:15:00 PM:
Brother Abe and sotired are so hung up on the color thing it's sad. I'd lay 100 to 1 odds they would be rejoicing if they thought a white man was being mistreated. Your racism glows like the sun, fellows. Poor Abe is too hung up on the county supervisors , hopefully he isn't on Leroy's payroll of campaigning to stay in office till he dies of old age. Something is keeping him on the subject, huh.
Abraham commented at 1/14/2010 2:17:00 AM:
Gogetum, it is hard for me to believe you are serious in these assertions. I would not rejoice even if my enemies were suffering, but I have many friends who happen to be white. If you were a betting man, you would loose your money.
I asked you some simple questions that you have chosen to ignore. Please answer them for me. Does your church invite black preachers (who believe as you do) to preach at your church? When you have social events like weddings and get-together's, do you invite your black friends? When my father died, many of my white friends attended a gathering and they ate with us. Would your black friends be welcomed at a funeral of your family member? The answer to these questions will determine whose "sun is really glowing!"
In addition to these unanswered questions, I asked, do "any of you have a problem with supervisors who never hire blacks in their districts?" Why don't you answer that. If county supervisors still refuse to hire blacks in their districts, you ought to still "be hung up" on this as well. Any citizen should. And will you answer the question, do "you think Mr. Johnson was treated unfairly when the police chief position was given to someone who did not have a high school diploma?" What keeps you from answering these questions? Is it possible that maybe your sun is glowing a little too brightly?
bear commented at 1/14/2010 10:57:00 AM:
Abraham, my pastor has been invited (and accepted)to speak in black churches. We welcome all people in our church. No, I would not have a problem with a supervisor not hiring blacks if there were no qualified ones to be found. Affirmative action has done more to hurt blacks than help. This entitlement mentality is cancerous to society as a whole. How many qualified whites have been shut out of opportunites because of meeting "quotas"? I know some personally. Joe Johnson was not treated unfairly. An obejective third party that the city paid $250,000 for their opinion found him less than qualified. He is a joke, white or black. If you did read court transcripts from his lawsuit(s), you would see that he admitted to not even putting forth effort on his advancement requirements until he realized he had some seniority. Leroy Brooks is a joke, and should be an embarassment to his constituency and the black community. As I've said before, there are black leaders who have my respect, George Irby, Jabari Edwards, Donnie Goss, Condoleeza Rice. The ones that I sense you are defending are a joke because of "the content of their character". You do remember the source and context of that quote, right? I think that it is a defeatist and inexcusable attitude to think that one should be given anything because of their skin color.
melody commented at 1/14/2010 12:37:00 PM:
Hey Abraham-to answer your simple question- Lowndes co. Supes don't hire black or white or any other color of people in their districts -it's done through proper chanels. Why are you determined to show your ignorance? Where did you live before coming to possum town ms? Were you a trouble maker there too?
sotired commented at 1/14/2010 1:08:00 PM:
ignorant(among other words) is calling someone a trouble maker because they question things
bear commented at 1/14/2010 3:56:00 PM:
What are those other words? Please share with the class.
Abraham commented at 1/14/2010 5:35:00 PM:
Bear, I appreciate your post. And if I know my heart, I desire nothing other than peace, harmony, and real understanding between all citizens of Lowdnes County. I don't mine someone challenging my objectivity if they can show just cause. And I hope you won't mind if I question your objectiveness so long as I can show a reason for doing so.
You said your pastor has been invited and accepted speaking at a predominantly black church. What I would like to know (a question I asked "gogetum") is has your church ever invited the black preacher (who invited your preacher) to speak at your church? One does not show you are not prejudice by accepting invitations. You show evidence when you extend invitations. For example, a church in Meridian at one point was ALL white. And they asked me to come and speak for them. And do you and your family invite blacks to your weddings? funerals? get-togethers? In the Bible, in Galatians 2:11-14, we read of Peter who willing to eat with Gentiles as long as certain other Jews were not present. Paul said Peter was being a hypocrite.
My point about supervisors never hiring a black has nothing to do with affirmative action. I find it hard to believe that no black in all these years has ever been more qualified than someone of another race. And I think it is a fair point to consider if it may be prejudice that causes a person to ALWAYS see blacks as less than qualified than a white person. So do you think Mr. Johnson was less qualified than the person who did not have a high school diploma? I have a few thoughts about affirmative action. But I will save them for another post. There are arguments put forth by both sides of affirmative action that I agree with.
As for the report, I will reserve comment upon it when I finish it.
As to the report card of so-called black leaders, that would depend upon who is giving the grade. And most people give a person a good grade if they agree with them. I suspect Mr. Brooks' constituency must feel he is addressing issues that none of the other "black leaders" will deal with. So they continue to vote him in. You feel those issues are irrelevant. They feel they are. They don't vote according to how you feel, but according to how they feel. I heard the editor of the Packet, Mr. Roger Larsen, say that he agreed that much of what Mr. Brooks says makes sense. He just disagreed with his expressions. As for you, maybe his crime is not that he is so incompetent, but that he disagrees with you on issues you deem relevant.
bear commented at 1/14/2010 8:56:00 PM:
Abraham< my father and a black minister led a bible study for soldiers for many years. There were black co-workers of my wife at my wedding. Quite frankly, though, I don't believe that I owe you any justification or explanation as to my co-mingling with blacks. I would be interested to hear your views on affirmative action. As I said, an expensive study claimed that Joe Johnson was not qualified. I think a $250,000 opinion on the matter is worth yours or mine. Leroy Brooks is a crook. He is not re-elected because of any great accomplishments of his own, it is because of race. I think that it is the highest hypocrisy for you to cannonize black leaders (btw, I'm curious as to what you meant by "so called black leaders") simply because they are black and leaders (loose definition). How would you rate Jim Terry on your leadership scale? Throw Al Sharpton, and Jeremiah Wright into the mix, as well. One is famous for a lot of double standard blustering, and the other is simply filled with ignorant hate. Neither is enlightened or offers anything positive to the world around them, only negativity and controversy. I give you Condoleeza Rice, a brilliant black woman, who has been ostracized from black sainthood because she was associated with George Bush and didn't complain about how she was passed over for a white person. She earned her station in life, and I respect her immensely. Bill Cosby is ridiculed for saying to young, black men what needs to be said. I am just as hopeful for some sort of unity as you are. That unity is not conditional on head starts because of some history that has absolutely no bearing on the here and now. As for the lack of a high school diploma, I don't know who you are referring to, and I don't care. I am college educated, and feel absolutely stupid in the pressence of a close friend who has no high school diploma. Yet, he has worked hard for eveything he has, and is a successful business owner. Joe Johnson was passed over because he did not work for it, he relied on the system. In the end what did he gain? He has gained no respect. He has not gained any position. He got a raise from the city to, as the title of this editorial stated, hush. In my humble opinion, Abraham, there has to be a shelf life for "woe is me" advancement. I do not agtree with the current administration in Washington, but I believe the legitimacy of affirmative action is gasping its last breath. No, my disagreement has nothing to do with race. For all of Leroy Brook's charm, and political skills he utilizes the blustering tactics of Revrend Al to no end. Yes, I agree, he could do good things, but he doesn't. He won't. For Joe Johnson, what is his legacy? Two circus sideshow lawsuits to his name. Has he performed any acts of heroism? Did you know that the man he shot was out on bond from the Mayor's moonlighing operation? For someone who presents himself as informed....
Bubba Gump commented at 1/15/2010 7:07:00 AM:
Joe Johnson is a product of the Peter Principle. Google the term if you don't know what it means and you'll see my point. Any normal person who isn't able to obtain a set goal will work to go around obstacles to obtain that goal, assuming they really want it. I'm sure there are Police Chief jobs open somewhere in this country on a daily basis, and if JJ was as qualified as all of his brotherly supporters seen to think he is, he should have no problem obtaining one of those jobs.
But rather than polish his resume or make any attempts (that would be like work) at getting a Chief job he and his suited clown decided to take the lazy black man's route of playing the race card.
Forget that he is in no way "owed" the Chief job just because he is still at the CPD no more so than someone working at this newspaper is "owed" the the Editors job after 20 years in the mail room.
But if you can hire a lawyer, and cry "scrimination" with a straight face, you too can bully your way into a nice settlement based on your own incompetence.
Joe Johnson, you are truly an example of the Peter Principle.
melody commented at 1/15/2010 9:55:00 AM:
Is it true that Abe is from Detroit and moved here to stir the race pot? Shame on you Abe. Maybe the wrong rev. wright would love to have you speak at his church or maybe become a member of his flock. What do you think? From the way you bark about race all the time , I think he would welcome you with open arms.
bear commented at 1/15/2010 10:52:00 AM:
Guys, from what this "Abraham" has shown on this page, he has no interest in addressing the facts, and continues to harp on whether or not you or I would have a black preacher. I'm at a loss to what that has to do with anything at all.
I like the fact that he can't share his thoughts on affirmative action with us. Hmmm, maybe because he has to ask Louis Farrakhan how to respond. Here's a news flash for ol' Abe - Leroy, Gentleman Jim, Rev. Al, Jeremiah Wrong - they're all crooks. I am so tired of hearing about what I owe anyone because of their color. I'm so tired of the race card being the excuse for laziness, and malfeasance.
Jamie commented at 1/16/2010 6:54:00 AM:
I know Bear very well and we go to the same church. We have blacks and whites in our congregation every Sunday and Wednesday night. Every Tuesday night, a group from our church goes out into the community and invites people (black and white) to our services. You want to know how I know that? Because Bear and I both have participated in these visitations. So I guess Abraham, your argument is toast when it comes to our church treating whites differently from blacks. We understand that God created us equally and that we should be treated as equals. I believe thats why Bear brought up affirmative action.
Now I am going to assume ( and only assume) that you voted for Obama, since you were defending him in am earlier post. How could you support and/or defend someone who believes in abortion, partial-birth abortion, stem cell research, etc? I have asked this questions to many so-called Christians who voted for him. Their answers are all the same. They say you can't agree with someone on 100% of all issues.
Personally, when I decide to vote for a candidate, the first place I look is his stance on social issues such as abortion. I, as a Christian, could never support a candidate who supports abortion.
You have said numerous times that you are against abortion, but if you supported a candidate that is pro-abortion, than you are absolutely for abortion too. There is no middle ground on this issue. It is literally black and white.
Now if you did not vote for Obama then this argument is as dead as yours about my and Bear's church.
Abraham commented at 1/16/2010 8:59:00 AM:
Jamie, for me, life is a continual journey for me to learn and improve myself. And there is room for improvement in me. And I hope that all of us feel the same. And I don't mind if you become my tool to help me improve. I said in my first post that I am in a sense an outsider. That is true when it comes to voting. I could never vote for a person who was in favor of abortion. But I have problems voting the republican ticket as well. I assume you voted for Senator John McCain. If that is true, do you believe that the child conceived by a rapist has less value than a child conceived by two consenting adults? If both are loved by the Lord, how could you be for a man who supports abortion in such cases?
And I am told that Senator McCain's first wife waited for him after he came home from the war, but he divorced her anyway. Also Matthew 19:9 reads, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." What do you think John the Baptist might say to Senator McCain if he were here today? Do you remember what he told Herod? Read Matthew 14:4. So when or if you voted for him, were you saying that it was OK for a man to divorce his faithful wife and marry another?
I am very impressed with what you said about your church. But I don't believe that my point about race is necessarily toast. I would hope it would be. I don't go around looking for supposed faults in others and I want to be the first to acknowledge if I am wrong. But experience with race relationships has taught me not to rejoice too quickly. In another post, I really hope you and other will consider what I say.
But Jamie, I think that you can see some things that you have in common with me. I certainly see some things I respect in you. And as we sort out our differences, lets not minimize those things we have in common. Sometimes I hear people say certain people suffered to give you the right to vote. But Jesus died for me (as unworthy as I am) that I might have a right to the tree of life.
Jamie commented at 1/16/2010 9:55:00 AM:
I did not vote for McCain. I am neither a Republican or Democrat. I am a conservative. McCain was not conservative enough for me on the important issues.
Abraham, I must say its easy to have this discussion with you. You are not overly emotional and you aren't "preachy" and I appreciate that. I feel like we have more in common than we both think.
I do not believe that a child conceived by a rapist has less value than one conceived in love. I am totally against abortion in any circumstance or situation. I also do not believe in divorce.
I did not want to come across as overly harsh, but I took great offense at what was said about my church. I believe that if a church is preaching God's love, they will want every race in their pews. We do that at my church. I wish people didn't always look for "potential" problems and rejoice in the fact that blacks and whites can and do worship together.
Racism will always exist and we will never have to go far to find it. But it's not one-sided. I have been the target of racism more times that I care to think about. But I'm not dwelling on that, I'm thankful for the people who are in my life, black and white.
Abraham commented at 1/16/2010 10:57:00 AM:
Jamie, once upon a time, there were two preachers who were the best of friends. One was black and the other was white. They ate together. They worked together in the kingdom of God. They both were welcomed in each other's home. Neither of these preachers lived in the same state and neither of them live in Mississippi. When the black preacher was invited to speak at a church close to the location of the white preacher, the white preacher asked the black preacher if he would come preach at his congregation. The black preacher agreed. But then the members of that congregation refused to have him come. Then they tried to compromise by saying he could come on Sunday evening perhaps when no visitors would be there. What is remarkable about this situation is that this church had some black members. But that didn't mean they were all they should be. Before this incident came up, someone might have incorrectly surmised that this congregation had no racial problems because they had black members. The truth of the matter is that it was OK for a black person to attend there as long as he didn't preach.
There was another case where a black person was in leadership at a congregation. And there seemed not to be any racial problems until his son fell in love with a white "sister" and she agreed to marry him. There have been cases where congregations have been content with having black members until there are too many of them. Then a congregation might not mind how many blacks attend a church as long as they can teach the little children in Sunday school that blacks and whites should not mix in marital relationships. Then there are congregations that seem to be content with blacks until the neighborhood changes it complexity. Then there might be some congregations which have members like the college peers of my son. He thought everything was fine with his white peers. They ate and worked fine together. But then one of them came and acknowledged in the presence of all of them to my son that they had been saying racist things about my son behind my his back. So often, appearances are not what they seem. Yet we have people who are so concerned about affirmative action and not so concerned about these kinds of problems which have a higher priority with the Lord.
I think many of us satisfy ourselves that we have no racist problems when we can enumerate the positives we have with other races. But that is not enough. In the church, there must be NO examples where distinctions are made. Let us all think on these things.
sotired commented at 1/16/2010 1:09:00 PM:
Abraham, please believe me when I say that they are well aware of the tyep of illustrations you mention. They choose to ignore them and/or place different reasoning to them. Which is why I say leave this alone. It's truly a waste of time, but as you know, continual prayer is not.
bear commented at 1/16/2010 1:47:00 PM:
Abraham and Sotired, let me honest in saying that I don't think either of you know what point you are trying to make. Assumptions tell me that you did, indeed, vote for Obama, Abraham. You are admittedly a Christian. Jamie pointed to discrepencies in Obama's character and policies, and you retorted by citing McCain's divorce. First and foremost, John McCain spent 5 years in the hell of a prison camp for his country. When offered early release he refused to leave his comrades or recieve special treatment. Obama has only ridiculed this country, and blamed every problem on his predecessor. He has an aversion to taking responsiblity for anything. Obama just appointed the first trans-gender administration official ever. How does the unatural distortion of God's creation sit with you, or is that another inconvenient issue you can overlook because Barry is black? Obama says that America is not a Christian nation, how do you feel about that as a Christian? Obama's "preacher" blasphemes God from the pulpit, is that ok with you as well? Obama sits in this church of hate for twenty years and you will somehow find it excusable, because he's black. Let's be honest, Obama in one of his books says that he will stand with the Muslims if the political winds dictate a choice. So how does that statement hit you as a Christian? I'm sorry, Abraham but you have so many holes in your story that I can't keep up. If you were honest you would admit that you voted for Obama because he is black, and that you would not be defending Joe if he were white. How do you feel about the story of the firefighters who were white and not advanced because not enough blacks passed the advancement test? Truth be told you and others like you hold onto affirmative action and the thrill of reverse discrimination like a security blanket. I will put the test to you, if you truly believe what you say about unity and color blindness, then stop talking about race, it"s that simple. The real irony here is that Jamie and I have both told you over and over that race is not an issue in our daily lives, but it's as if you don't want to hear that. I truly believe that many blacks feed off racism, or perceived racism, rather.
Jamie commented at 1/16/2010 4:37:00 PM:
To Abraham and sotired:
Once upon a time there was a young white girl who had just finished an undergraduate degree in Audiology and Speech Pathology. She was waiting to attend graduate school and wanted to get a part-time job to earn a little extra money while in grad school. She found the perfect job in the classified ads. It was for a newborn hearing technician position. Only a high school diploma was necessary, but she knew that with a degree in a field related to hearing and speech, that she would have a good chance getting the job. The young girl went for the interview and the interviewer was very impressed with this girl's resume and grades in college. She told the girl only one other had applied for the job, but the girl's qualifications were excellent. The young girl went home and waited for her phone to ring. In three days the phone did ring. It was the interviewer apologizing to the white girl because she didn't get the job. The job went the to black girl who was working on obtaining her GED. They felt like she "needed" the job more.
Another story about the same white girl. After graduate school this girl got a great job working as a speech therapist. On a home health visit in a black neighborhood, the girl got lost. She pulled to the side of the road and asked three black men for directions the this patient's house. They laughed and said" get your white *** back to your side of town."
Same girl....working at a nursing home with predominantly black patients. Girl was going to help an elderly black man back to his room by holding his hand. Black man replied by saying, " I aint never held no white girl's hand and I never will."
So, you see, I am not denying that racism doesn't exist. That young white girl was me. I deal with it everyday.
But I have to agree with Bear. It seems like that you don't want to hear the positive race relation stories that I have shared. Its like you want there to be racism, just so you will have something to complain about.
Abraham commented at 1/16/2010 7:14:00 PM:
For Bear and Jamie, I appreciate your responses. I am anxious to share a few points with each of you. I have a class to teach tomorrow and must finish my preparation for it. But if the Lord has mercy on me to let me live with opportunity, I plan to correct some very obvious errors in your analysis of me and my writings. I hope each of you have wonderful Lord's day tomorrow. God bless.
Abraham commented at 1/17/2010 3:46:00 AM:
Jamie, you said, "It seems like that you don't want to hear the positive race relation stories that I have shared." Nothing could be further from the truth. I am sincere when I say I appreciate them. I am sorry that various blacks have treated you unfairly. And if I had been there, I would have obeyed Ephesians 5:11. But just as easily as you can tell your story, I can tell you that about a month or so ago, in Caledonia a law officer was sitting at a convenience store that sold food. I attempted to joke with him saying, "I heard that the law officials were buying everyone's lunch." He replied to me using the words monkey and the term for manure, you know the one that begins with "s". That really did not set well with me. But I gently touched him and said something kind to him. Some might say, "Why didn't you say more?" Because it is evident that he did not have the love of Christ nor the word of God in his heart and ONLY that will change people. You can't change people by politics.
I was riding down Hwy 45 some years ago and I was driving rather carelessly. A white fellow motioned for me to roll down my windows and he said, "I knew you was a n--ger, but I didn't think you would drive like one." I did not get the chance to talk with him. But if I could talk to that fellow, it would not be about his offense per se to me, but I would want to share the love of God with him.
I don't want there to be racism any more than you do. I want you to be honest with me. Was this the first time you ever shared these incidents of racism against you? We all have stories to tell. And as we reflect upon them, we should remember the words of Paul the apostle when he said:
"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:6-8).
We all need to think for ourselves. Bear can't think for me and neither should he think for you.
gogetum commented at 1/17/2010 4:16:00 PM:
Like I said in my first post , just wasting time with this Abe guy. It is even more obvious after his post in this page that he is racist through and through. My hat's off to Jamie for putting the ball in his court on the abortion issue. How revealing of old Abe's true color. Not only is his racism exposed but his hipocracy is now in the open . Everybody knows now that he voted for BO and that his pro life stand is not real because of that. A vote for BO was a vote for abortion. He caved and left his pro life stand in an attempt to elect a black liberal democrat. It's that simple, Abe. You probably think Mister Lincoln was a democrat, right? Why do you have problems about voting for a Repub? Abe Lincoln was one. All freed slaves were republican and were more populas in state governments back then than white electees. That's why the dems started the kkk to kill white and black repubs in order to regain power. How backward can you be Abe to not support the repubs? If it had not been for the repubs in the fed gov. blacks couldn't vote at all today. I think the kkk dems still have a member in congress--can't recall his name but he is from West Vir.
I voted for a real pro lifer and a real black man--Alan Keyes. You need to repent, Abe.
Abraham commented at 1/18/2010 7:16:00 AM:
Gogetum, I have to disagree with you. We have not wasted time in this thread. I think we have made a lot of progress here. And I'd like to make some more progress with you. My post will be modeled after yours. Here goes.
>It is even more obvious after Gogetum's post in this page that he is racist through and through. My hat's off to Jamie for showing that she and I have one of many things in common in that we stand together in opposing such abominable practices such as partial birth abortion. She is to be commended because even though we have differences, she has not focused exclusively on those while ignoring what we have in common. How revealing of old Gogetum's true color in that he does not follow Jamie's example. Not only is Gogetum's racism exposed but his hypocrisy is now in the open. He says Mr. Johnson is not qualified because of a study, but is unwilling to acknowledge that Mr. Billy Pickens was not qualified in that he did not have a high school diploma. Everybody (including God) knows that I did not vote for Mr. Obama and neither did I vote for Mr. McCain. Everybody recognizes that this affirmation is consistent with my stand on pro life. This is true even though individuals like Gogetum continue to lie on me. And God knows that as well (Revelation 21:8). Gogetum further shows his hypocrisy and bias when says to me, "A vote for BO was a vote for abortion," but he will not say to Bear, "A vote for Senator McCain was a vote unscriptural divorces and the killing of children conceived in rape." I wonder when he will clear this up. I don't know why Gogetum and others have more of a devotion to politics than they have to the gospel. I wonder do they (and many blacks too) recognize that on the day of judgment, politics will not matter. God is not going to be concerned with how many blacks were elected or how many slaves Mr. Lincoln freed. He will only be concerned with what His Son said in Matthew 7:21. Gogetum, have you obeyed the gospel? I'd like to help you if you will let me.
What do you say?
bear commented at 1/18/2010 9:27:00 AM:
Abe, you're race baiting, plain and simple. I agree to disagree. You continue to take my words out of context, and twist them to fit your argument.
Why don't you man up, and answer gogetums question. Who did you vote for? We've all been forthright with that, now it's your turn.
Slavery happened well before you and I were anywhere near being on the earth. Every race has been in bondage at some point. To continue to live in the past and use slavery as a crutch is contradictory to the Gospel. You say God forgives, can you?
melody commented at 1/18/2010 9:41:00 AM:
There you go again, Abe, putting words in Gogetum's post. Gogetum says nothing about a study and no mention of a Billy Pickens. Abe , you are worse than we thought, now you are making up stuff about what other people said. I'm just too nice to say , you lied. I agree with Gogetum, your racism is so obvious and exposed again in your last defense of BO and condemnation of a great American, John McCain, in the same breath.
I don't recall Gogetum saying anything about being white, do you? If what you say is true, that he or she is a white racist, why did he vote for a black man for president? How can that be? Gogetum did say he voted for Alan Keyes, right? Abe, your own feelings of racism have messed up your thinking. Please tell us why you didn't vote for Alan Keyes? He was the only true pro life candidate on the ballot so why didn't you vote for him???
Abraham commented at 1/18/2010 2:36:00 PM:
Bear, I haven't twisted any of your words. You simply do not like the inevitable conclusion of the position you have taken. From about 1991 to 2007, we had a minister who happened to be black. During that time, we had many preachers, both white and black to come be guest speakers for us all because that preacher asked that we invite them. All across this country, many churches whose membership is mostly white have invited him to come and speak for them. An editor of a national religious paper commented to me just a few weeks ago, that those churches have consistently told him that they were pleased to have him come.
After this preacher decided to leave, a friend of mine who happens to be white wanted to come be a minister of the gospel for us. We accepted him. He has helped me much. And he has done the same as the preacher before him. He has asked us to accept several guest speakers, both white and black. Bear, why don't you quit making excuses. Don't comfort your self because other churches exclude blacks from their pulpits like you all do. That's to your shame and I can't help it if it does not set well with you. I hope one day you will truly embrace what it means to be "color blind."
You asked me about voting. Several years ago, I had a conversation with an elderly white brother in the Lord who told me that people can't conceive of people like him and me who do not vote. Do you think voting is the way to show God you love Him? Please tell me.
You say slavery happened years ago. I recognize that no one today is responsible for slavery. That was not my point at all. Let me explain. I met a white woman in a certain store who was pregnant and had a four year old daughter whose father was black. She said she had a tough time because of the attitudes of people. Those attitudes stem, in part, from the teaching of preachers that say "race mixing" is wrong. They have taught false ideas like the "curse of Ham," a doctrine that says blacks are inferior to whites. And they say God approves of this nonsense. And they have taught that American slavery can be justified based on the Bible. These kinds of false teaching, in part, have created prejudiced attitudes among many white people. And we are still seeing the fruit of it.
You say, "God forgives." Yes He does. But His forgiveness is conditional. We must repent. We must confess our wrongs. And we must make restitution. Please tell me Bear, if I stole your watch, would God forgive me if I am unwilling to give it back to you? Could I keep it if a certain amount of time had gone by? Please think on these things.
Abraham commented at 1/18/2010 2:38:00 PM:
Melody, you said, "Gogetum says nothing about a study and no mention of a Billy Pickens." What he said earlier is, "Abe is probably black so don't waste facts on him about Joe's case." The "facts" in question was the "study". Did you read the other posts? >You say I defended the President and condemned Senator McCain. I think people can read for themselves what I said. Anyone who defends abortion is wrong and any man who divorces his faithful wife is wrong. Why are you trying to defend unscriptural divorces? Are you so tied to the Senator that you can not admit he was wrong? >You say you don't recall him saying he was white? Do you recall him saying that the reason why facts should not be wasted on me is because I was black? I don't recall saying he was white or black. It does not matter to me what color he is. If he was for abortion, I would say he was wrong regardless of his color. If he said that it was a sin for blacks and whites to marry, regardless of his color, I would say he was wrong. >You said, "Abe, your own feelings of racism have messed up your thinking." Let's reword that to get the truth. "Melody, your own feelings of racism have messed up your thinking."
Jamie commented at 1/18/2010 5:05:00 PM:
I'm not sure why Bear is not telling you this, Abraham, but we do not exclude any race from our pulpit. We have invited both black and hispanic (Cuban) ministers to speak on numerous occasions. Our church does allow black ministers. Our church also has mixed race couples and mixed race children. I wish Bear would've told you that in the beginining, maybe that would've changed your feelings about him and our church.
Also, I want to say, that though I think we disagree on some key points, we agree on the KEY point. Let me be the first to say, I do not believe that Abraham is racist.
gogetum commented at 1/18/2010 9:46:00 PM:
Abe, you're reverting to childish tactics now. Playing nanny nanny boo boo is out of my league. I don't think melody will play that game with you either. Once an adult-twice a child, so they say. You can't even answer the easy questions or won't. Melody asked a fair question- why didn't you vote for Alan Keyes? Haven't seen an answer on that one. Do you agree that True pro-lifers don't support Biden/Obama?
I hope you do repent, Abe. I think we are all guilty of disobeying God and need confession. When you repent from your wrong thoughts too then I can start believing along with Jamie that you are no longer a racist. It's possible to make a turn a round , Abe. Take your burdens to the Lord and leave them there. First step has been made- we have made you aware of it so now it's up to you to just confess it all and start a new.
No longer on this thread. Bye bye
Abraham commented at 1/18/2010 10:24:00 PM:
Jamie, I have recognized early in these discussions that you have a different attitude from the others even if you may regard some of them very highly. In my judgement, it is easy to determine whether a person has a fair and open mind. People who are fair minded give acknowledgement when others make a good point. They will give acknowledgement when others make points of which they are in agreement. They are the kind of people that truly seek common ground that brings about unity between them and others with whom they are in disagreement. They are the kind of people who will take a step back and look at themselves to see if they have a beam in their eye before they criticize the mote in someone else's eye (Matthew 7:3-5). These kinds of things are missing in both black and white people. I think that is why issues are seldom resolved. Often times we have preconceived ideas about other people. But a fair minded person will allow facts and evidence to change those preconceived ideas. I truly wish you and your family could find your way to visit us at our church. I promise you, you all would be very welcomed. Also, my son is doing a live call in Bible radio program this Saturday at 12:30 PM. Please tune in and call in if you are so inclined to do so. The radio dial is AM 1050. You can listen on line at wtwgam1050.com
Thanks for your feedback.
melody commented at 1/18/2010 10:33:00 PM:
Thanks Jamie for being nice to poor old Abe. He does seems pretty confused about a lot of things and probably might need professional help. Let me say I'm sorry if I made it worse for you Abe. Maybe Gogetum meant the best for you when he said to repent and not as a put down. It's best to pray about it all and leave your whole mess of thoughts in His hands . Just ask Him to control all your thoughts , your words and your actions. But you Have to repent of all that racial stuff stored away inside you and follow the Lord's lead. Let Him be the judge about Joe Johnson, etc etc and stop even thinking about it. Make a stand for the pro life movement and save lives. Then don't support any politician who is not pro life , especially one who says it's above his or her paygrade to say it's right or wrong!!
slick commented at 1/19/2010 5:44:00 AM:
To all of you who keep bringing God into the race issue,you are forgetting that God is the one who created race after the "Tower of Babel".And scattered them "to the far corners of the earth". Segregated????
bear commented at 1/19/2010 9:05:00 AM:
My biggest problem with affirmative action is its cultural implications. Southern people are forced to give up traditions that have been relegated as "hate". This is ludicrous, and a slimy tactic of liberals and race baiters. We are told that the Confederate flag is a symbol of hate-nonsense. Colonel Reb @ Ole Miss cannot enter the stadium-nonsense. "Dixie" can no longer be sung @ Ole Miss sporting events-nonsense. Now we have folks trying to erect monuments to Union soldiers in the South-preposterous! In the 1870s on the floor of the Mississippi State Senate a black man argued passionately for a memorial to be erected in Jackson commemorating the Confederacy. The ruse that the Civil War was fought over slavery is a lie. As for slavery, let's be honest, had it not been for slavery there would be no "African-Americans". Blacks would not have a large population in America, enjoying freedom and economic opportunities. Most would be in Africa experiencing famine, disease, and war. I was in a cab in Chicago recently with a Somali man who immigrated to the U.S., worked, and became a citizen. I asked his thoughts on American racism. His response, there are opportunites here in America for everyone, a black man has been elected President, and he went on to say he had no respect for American blacks who play race games. It's ironic that anytime a white person uses any language that is remotely ethnic in slant they are crucified, yet black comedians and such use words like "honky" and "cracker" with inpunity.
There are many things in the black culture that I celebrate, food, many, many musicians and artists. There are also many things I detest-gangster rap and its peripheal culture, the astonishing tradition of unwed mothers, the ever-growing crime rate. I believe it's time for everyone to put down the walls of history and the demands of an eye for an eye on every issue. Don't attack my culture simply to antagonize (and that's what it is). Remedy the ills of your own culture. Tend your own garden.
observer2 commented at 1/19/2010 10:05:00 AM:
Slick: You do bring up a good point. Records show that blacks had more self respect during segregation in the U.S. than now after decades of intergration. Example- single parent household before intergration among blacks was 30 percent but now it is over 80 percent. Big difference in black crime too, way way big difference. Can't argue about God knowing what is best.
Don''t Know! commented at 1/19/2010 7:44:00 PM:
The Supreme Court legalized abortion years ago.I don't understand how voting for a politician that's prolife can have any effect on the Supreme Court decision.After all these years,it seems it hasn't been challenged. Would you please explain this to me. Thanks.
melody commented at 1/19/2010 9:22:00 PM:
Planned parenthood gets about 300 million of our tax dollars each year. We need a congress and senate who will stop that. Planned parenthood is a big abortion clinic. The old gal who started it , Margaret Sangar or something like that probably had good intentions but resulted in the deaths of millions of babies. BO and Biden are more pro abortion than their supporters think. Congress has more power than you might think. What specific question did you have? You can go to the net to learn more about the Planned parenthood.
melody commented at 1/20/2010 8:37:00 AM:
Pretty obvious old Abe will not repent. Stuck on calling people racist. The words of Margaret were taken out of context. Go to quotes of her and do some more reading, Abe. What are we to do to stop the killing of babies today is the question. Voting for people like Biden, BO and other progressive politicians is only making the killings increase. You are right about the high number of black abortions and yet blacks will blindly support the liberal dems all the way to hell.. Black preachers will loudly lead their flock to keep on voting for the dems even from the pulpit. How backwards can you get?
observer2 commented at 1/20/2010 9:30:00 AM:
I think you right Melody. And this Abe fellow probably never heard of Alan Keyes. Too bad. Keyes would have made a great Senator from Ill and a greater President. BO is a disgrace. Can't go back and redo stuff but many are regreting electing those two. It's not too late to get out of the mess they put us in if the Nov elections will just hurry up and get here. Thank the Lord for MA folks who fired a shot heard around the world.
Raymond Gross commented at 1/20/2010 9:58:00 PM:
Melody and Abraham: There's a number of issues covered in this thread. Glad the abortion subject came up since this is "right to life week" with the march in DC on the 22nd. You guys probably know about it already but just in case you don't, please check out the "abortionno.org" web site. Also read about GAP, geicide awareness project. It's a part of CBR, center for bioethical reform. It's something you can help with on college campasses as a volunteer. They pay for your transportation and for room and board. I have helped with CBR and GAP in the past and found it very educational and worthwhile. I have contact info if either of you or both would like to get involved and help save babies lives. I'm in the book. I have some interesting stories to share if you want to call me.
Abraham commented at 1/20/2010 11:43:00 PM:
Raymond, thanks for the info. I hope to contact you soon. It will be a few days as I will be out of town. I think it has been about a year now since I had a wonder guest, Tanya Briton, on my radio program. She did a wonderful job in educating the public about abortion. I think she is the leader of the Pro Life Movement in Jackson. My son, who is a student at Mississippi State, has tried to help persuade many of his peers on this issue. But I can't help but say that it is a shame to praise such individuals as Margaret Sanger who is mostly responsible for the abortion movement today. It should be agreed by every sincere person that such "praise" as that is only a subtraction to the pro life movement. On the issue of abortion, our president deserves the criticism he has been given. It is quite hypocritical to denounce him for his stand on abortion and then praise the one who started the abortion movement.
Don"t Know commented at 1/21/2010 6:42:00 AM:
How can we overturn the Supreme Court ruling on abortion?
Bubba Gump commented at 1/21/2010 8:42:00 AM:
Abraham, you sure do take a long time to digest the Peter Principle. Could it be the truth is kinda hard to swallow?
JJ and the Mayor was nothing more than a scam. Both should be removed from office.
Abraham commented at 1/21/2010 10:11:00 AM:
Bubba, I think I understand the "Peter Principle." At issue is whether it applies to Mr Johnson and our mayor. And it does take me a while to read and digest things. But be patient with me and I WILL tell you what I think when I have "digested" the study. If I think you are right, it will not be hard for me to say so. It seems that you and others believe I have some kind of commitment to the mayor, Mr. Johnson, or Mr. Brooks. I have no attachment to them. I am simply annalyzing the facts as I see them. And I haven't seen any convincing proof that they should be removed from office. But I have seen some indicators that these individuals and others are not getting a fair shake.
Abraham commented at 1/21/2010 10:25:00 AM:
"Don't Know", you ask about the Supreme Court ruling. Over the years, I have not placed a lot of emphasis on changing the law to restrict abortion. I think the real battle ground is to change the hearts of people to embrace the principle of loving your neighbor as one self. And the closest neighbor to a woman is her own child. I think that videos, though disturbing, like the one Raymond shared will go a long way toward helping ladies see how abominable this practice is. I have been told that many "side walk" counselors have helped turn many ladies away from the abortion clinic. My son has told me of conversations where his peers have spoken about encouraging others to have an abortion. He has rebutted what they had to say. I think we must not be passive in the presence of other who voice encouragement and approval for abortion.
We need to help all people to see the connection between abortion and other forms of evil in our society. One of those connections is that if we can not value the live of a child 10 minutes before he is born, then we are not inclined to value his life 10 minutes after he is born. That is one of the reasons why murders are up and why child abuse is greater. If changing laws will stop or cut down abortions, then I am all for it. What do you think?
Thom Geiger commented at 1/21/2010 1:08:00 PM:
Abraham, did you answer my question? I didn't see any specific answers to those questions, but there's been so much posted to the page since I checked it last, I might have missed it. Should the taxpayers get the best candidate for every tax payer funded position? Should the city's search for department heads be open to a nationwide application process, or should the mayor and council only consider local applicants?
Should city department head positions be considered affirmative action positions?
Abraham commented at 1/21/2010 3:45:00 PM:
Thom, I don't think you posed any questions on this thread. As for your questions, I will give a few responses. And I hope we can discuss them later when I have more time. If a few days go by, just continue to check this thread. I might have some questions for you later. I think it goes without saying that we should try to get the best candidate where ever they may be found, locally or nationally. I don't think any of that is the issue with Mr. Johnson's complaint. This city was content to hire locally until a local black candidate wanted the position. Then the city decided they needed studies and wanted the "best candidate." All of this seems to me to be motivated by a refusal to hire a black man for the position. You ask about affirmative action. If ONLY white candidates have been accepted for various positions AND the standard for hiring has been to hire the most senior local candidate, then I would have no problem giving individuals like Mr. Johnson a shot at being chief just like the city gave Mr. Pickens the opportunity.
A separate question would be whether Mr. Johnson is as good or better a candidate than those candidates from abroad? And given the biased way he seems to have been done, will the city treat him fairly when compared to other candidates? The city hired a chief from abroad, Mr Sanders I think. How do you rate him as a chief? I really need to finish analyzing the study in order for us to really carry this discussion deeper. Of course, that is my fault not yours.
melody commented at 1/21/2010 8:49:00 PM:
I don't think anyone was praising Miss Sanger in this thread, Abe. I agree with you that BO is more guilty than she was and hands out our tax $ to have it done. I think they will be held accountable and so will those who support the act. Look at two of the folks who accepted an award in her memory--MLK and Hillary C. I agree with you that abortion is premediated murder of a defenseless human being and so does our creator. You're right that people need to be educated about the meaning of the whole thing . Yes , a picture is worth a thousand words. Your son can sponsor the GAP to visit State if he is interested. Do they have a pro life chapter there? I'd like to see them come to the campus for a couple days and then on up to Ole Miss. It can be done.
observer2 commented at 1/22/2010 9:41:00 AM:
Mr. Abe has sure has ignored many questions in this thread. Could his main objective be to advertise "his radio show" while playing the race card every chance he gets. Sure hope that isn't the case.
melody commented at 1/22/2010 3:42:00 PM:
Abe, why didn't you vote for Alan Keyes? We're still waiting.
Abraham commented at 1/23/2010 8:26:00 PM:
Melody, I have already expressed that I don't put faith in politics to change the world. Alan Keyes can't change the hearts of men. ONLY the gospel of Christ can do that. Do you agree with that?
observer2 commented at 1/23/2010 9:43:00 PM:
Who is Alan Keyes? Isn't he that pro life black man who ran for president? He's the one you should have voted for if your pro life talk is sincere. His example could have been one for evil hearts to follow , thus making a constructive change to the good. Your man Barry(BO) is more pro abortion than any other president, even the slickster comes in second to him. Shame on you for supporting BO and for not voting for Mr. Keyes. In your ans. to Melody, are you refering to your heart? Let the Gospel change your own heart so next time your vote will be for the right person. Like old Gogetum said: Repent.
Abraham commented at 1/24/2010 4:05:00 AM:
So you voted for Alan Keyes, Observer2? And since Bear did not vote for him, does he need to repent? But you and Gogetum need to repent of accusing me of voting for the president? That was a lie.
observer2 commented at 1/24/2010 12:17:00 PM:
So you didn't vote for Barry. Now suck it up and say why you didn't vote for Keyes or just stop talking about your pro life stand. It's not a lie that you support biden/obama, right? Would that be a whole lot different than voting for them? Bear has not said he didn't vote for Keyes. He could not have voted for him in the Gen election nor could anybody else. Only in the primary election. You have been asked the question several times so why not speak for yourself instead of Bear. I think you are trying to put words in others post again and afraid to tell us the truth about your feelings.
moses commented at 1/24/2010 7:35:00 PM:
I decree you all quit wasting your time talking about Joe Johnson and watch the Saints marching into the Super Bowl in Miami. Do you really think your arguing will make the issue change. Joe got his money, and that is that. Vote the board out next go around. Geaux Saints.
melody commented at 1/25/2010 11:02:00 AM:
Well, you finally revealing your true stand by saying your heart is like stone. "it matters little to me if he or you do not like it." A soft hearted person wouldn't say that. Why do you persistly fall back to judging Senator McCain's life? Are you just trying to change the subject again? You keep condeming the life of a man who has actually earned a peace prize, shame on you. Shake that old devil off and tell us why you didn't vote for Alan Keyes? Be a man and fess up. We know it's possible that you didn't vote for anyone? If that's the case , why are you even posting in this thread?
observer2 commented at 1/25/2010 12:21:00 PM:
Hey moses--who's this Joe Johnson you talk about?
Abraham commented at 1/25/2010 4:55:00 PM:
Melody, if I tell the truth, "it matters little to me if" anyone else approves of it. Is that better? >Do you think Jamie was sincere when she said she could not vote for Senator McCain? Do you think she was "judging him?" On judgment day, will the Lord refuse a man a home in heaven because he did not vote? What will keep a man out of heaven?
melody commented at 1/25/2010 9:18:00 PM:
Abraham commented at 1/26/2010 3:47:00 AM:
Do you think Jamie was sincere when she said she could not vote for Senator McCain? Do you think she was "judging him?"
melody commented at 1/26/2010 9:40:00 AM:
Who is Jamie? We want to hear about Abe. Can he speak for himself? Answer the question or get off the thread, sir.
observer2 commented at 1/27/2010 11:10:00 AM:
Some one said before , it's a waste of time bloging with old "honest Abe". He has no right to say anything about anything or anybody if he didn't even vote. Especially when he had a good Christian conservative like Alan Keyes who is very pro life on the ballet. I'd bet it's because he sued Barry for being a usurper. I don't want to read anymore of Abe's comments. Surely won't be debating anymore with him unless he repents like Melody said. So don't waste your time Abe making judgements on everybody else when you don't care enough to even cast your vote. Poor citizen in my book. I think everyone else will agree.
Abraham commented at 1/28/2010 3:23:00 PM:
I still would like for someone to tell me how did you become convinced that I supported any candidate for any office? I think we all should take the time to ask ourselves whether or not our bias against others is what causes us to arrive at various conclusions.
melody commented at 1/30/2010 10:14:00 AM:
Well, thank the Lord, Abe, and welcome to the human race. You finally admit being bias just like the rest of us. Now , start working on being a good American Citizen. Vote for the one who is truly pro life and will stand for other conservative issues. Forget about loyalty to parties and be independent like everybody else over there in MS.
Abraham commented at 2/1/2010 10:05:00 AM:
Melody, I have never denied that I am capable of bias. I just deny any of you have shown that I have been biased relative to these issues. Also, my son Isaac did a good job at Toastmasters in presenting the case against abortion. Several people (who were for abortion) said of his speech, "You shared points that I never thought about." I guess such efforts as this is meaningless unless he voted for Senator John McCain, right? And did you vote for Senator McCain? Please tell me.
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