Article Comment 

A Christian nation

 

 

Was Barrack H. Obama bragging about one of his changes when he told the world that we are no longer a Christian nation? Sounded that way to me. Don''t you think he was speaking mainly for himself, his administration and most of the Dems who have been in control of our Congress and Senate since 2006? Surely not speaking about the hard working taxpayers of our country. 

 


I really think that most Americans should know by now that this administration believes that premarital sex (a non-Christian act) while using condoms is OK in their book and consequently have broadened the use of abortion (another non-Christian action) by making it a lawfully legal form of birth control, available to all those who accidentally become pregnant during the process. 

 


Aside from all the other non-Christian issues on their platform, those two by themselves clearly show the world that they are ruling like a bunch of non-Christian leaders. So it''s true then that this president was referring to himself and the Democrat leaders of our Congress and Senate as being non Christian, not the nation''s hardworking taxpayers.  

 


I believe that most of our nation still stands for the Christian principals established in its beginning by those Godfearing men and women who had a Christian vision for the U.S. of A. I thank God for all those who began our Nation while following God''s guidance and I ask you to continue the fight to keep it that way; don''t ever give up. Let us stand together and stop evil leaders from permanently changing what those before us gave their lives to build.  

 


Don''t ever forget what President Reagan said, "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We don''t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream; freedom must be fought for, protected and handed on for them to do the same. And when we change from being one nation under God, we will be a nation gone under."  

 


 

 


Raymond Gross 

 


Columbus 

 


 

 

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Reader Comments

Article Comment KJ commented at 6/29/2009 1:33:00 PM:

This great nation wasn't founded as a christian nation. It it not and never has been a theocracy. It is a secular nation. It would be foolish to deny that our constitution and laws were not influenced by Judeo-Christian values, but they deviate from those values in many respects. Particularly they take great care to protect the ability of people to practice alternate belief systems. A people ruled by priests (of any religion, sect, or cult) is never free.

 

Article Comment JC commented at 6/29/2009 3:39:00 PM:

Every single Supreme Court justice on the majority of Roe v. Wade was a Christian. (Blackmun - Roman Catholic; Burger - Presbyterian; Douglas - Presbyterian; Brennan - Roman Catholic; Stewart - Episcopalian; Powell - Presbyterian; Marshall - Episcopalian)

Every single U.S. president has been a Christian, including Barack Obama (United Church of Christ) Joe Biden is a Christian (Roman Catholic).

Virtually every legislator at every level of government in the U.S., including current Democratic leaders Nancy Pelosi (Roman Catholic) and Harry Reid (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints), has been a Christian.

But I'm sure, Mr. Gross, that YOU are the only one who understands what "Christian" really means.

Oh - and there are plenty of Americans who are atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and so on, and they are just as American as you are.

 

Article Comment jamie commented at 7/1/2009 11:29:00 PM:

JC- Just because you are affiliated with a denomination of Christianity does NOT make you a Christian.

 

Article Comment believeit commented at 7/2/2009 11:29:00 AM:

This nation was founded on Christian principles. You can't escape it. Read the Declaration, read the Consitution of this country, as well as each state. They all make strong statements about being consecrated according to God.
America has been overwhelmingly blessed because of her Christian history. In light of the current shape of things, and the statement made by Barry (in conjunction with the "secular" abandonment of Christianity)-don't you see a correlation?

 

Article Comment KJ commented at 7/2/2009 12:10:00 PM:

No, I don't see a correlation. The "current shape of things" was wrought by an overtly foolish administration. Some might say that their foolishness was a result of their christianity, but I shall refrain from that judgement. As I said, it would be foolish to deny judeo-christian influences in our constitution and laws, but our founders explicitly chose set up a secular government rather than a theocracy. It is the rationality of our founders with which this nation is blessed, not the superstitions of a populace cowed by reality.

 

Article Comment JC commented at 7/2/2009 12:40:00 PM:

Read the Declaration, read the Consitution of this country, as well as each state. They all make strong statements about being consecrated according to God.

The U.S. Constitution says absolutely nothing about any deity. The Declaration mentions a "creator" but is not specific.

 

Article Comment JC commented at 7/2/2009 12:41:00 PM:

Just because you are affiliated with a denomination of Christianity does NOT make you a Christian.

Yes it does.

 

Article Comment believeit commented at 7/2/2009 2:08:00 PM:

This nation was founded on Christian principles. You can't escape it. Read the Declaration, read the Consitution of this country, as well as each state. They all make strong statements about being consecrated according to God.
America has been overwhelmingly blessed because of her Christian history. In light of the current shape of things, and the statement made by Barry (in conjunction with the "secular" abandonment of Christianity)-don't you see a correlation?

 

Article Comment believeit commented at 7/2/2009 2:18:00 PM:

JC-go read the Constitutions of all 50 state-God is mentioned specifically. Quite frankly, the foolish administration is currently in office.
I want a government and President who conduct their lives and the business of this nation with a set of priciples in mind, instead of a flimsy, humanist approach.
And no, Bush isn't spending money now. A 1 trillion dollar deficit has become a 10 trillion dollar deficit in 6 mos under Barry.
JC/KJ - God loves you, Jesus Christ gave his life for yours. That's incredible. If you believe that why wouldn't you want your country to believe the same (I'm not talking theocracy). By the way I love you too, and pray for you.

 

Article Comment Raymond Gross commented at 7/2/2009 5:07:00 PM:

REBUTTAL TO K.J.&J.C. REGARDING CHRISTIAN NATION:

After reading the comments from the web site in Tuesday's Dispatch, it's pretty apparent that much more emphasis needs to put on American History and the Bible in our Public Schools. I respect both inputs but can't figure out what they based their opinion's on. Who have they been listening to and what have they been reading that's brought them to such conclusions? Surely not David Barton's wall builders nor the Bible. I do recommend both for everybody to read up on.
For K.J.- Our nation is not a free country. It is a Country of Freedoms bought and paid for with the blood and guts of many previous God fearing Patriots. These very freedoms though are being eroded by liberal leaders who have been in control of our Congress and Senate since 2006. It appears they are on a fast track now that they have elected a super liberal President and Vice President.

Don't get me wrong, I served in the Military over 30 years defending your freedom to speak out about what you believe. Even though I think you have probably been misled and we disagree on many issues , I admire you for actually speaking. I would appreciate you using your names next time though.
Another question for K.J.- Do you really believe Christianity is a religion as you said?
For J.C.- My Bible says, "By their fruits ye shall know them". All the names you referred to as being Christians, Obama/Biden/Ried and Pelosi will probably never convince me or any one else by their actions that they are anywhere close to being what you say they are. Call them like you see them , J.C. Now, as far as me being the only one who knows what "Christian" really means; what about you J.C. and K.J., if someone ask you , "What is a Christian", what would you say?

Lastly, have you ever thought about becoming a Christian?


Raymond Gross

Columbus

 

Article Comment jamie commented at 7/2/2009 6:28:00 PM:

JC, your response to my post proves that you do NOT know what a Christian is. Just because you go to First Baptist or Trinity Church of Christ does not make you a Christian. Sadly many believe this and many die and go to Hell. I would be happy to share with you how you can know you are a Christian. In fact, I would love to. A real Christian believes that Jesus died for all and claiming that sacrafice, they can go to Heaven. You aren't just a Christian because you go to a particular church.

 

Article Comment Raymond Gross commented at 7/3/2009 11:40:00 AM:

Our current president, who Ambassador Alan Keyes refers to as a Usurper, should never tell others that we are just a bunch of mind numb citizens, but should tell them what Joshua said, "Choose this day whom you will serve, as for me and the nation I represent--we will serve the Lord!" If this president ever becomes a true Christian, that is the message he will be preaching to the whole world!

 

Article Comment JC commented at 7/3/2009 12:34:00 PM:

This nation was founded on Christian principles.

No it wasn't. It was founded on Enlightenment principles.

Read the Declaration, read the Consitution of this country, as well as each state.

The Declaration mentions a non-specific "creator." The Constitution mentions nothing about any particular deity. It establishes a tri-partite government of checks and balances with a bicameral legislature, representative democracy, etc. - NONE of which is mentioned in the Bible. The Romans who crucified Jesus were much closer to the type of nation established by our Constitution than the Jews or early Christians were.

JC-go read the Constitutions of all 50 state-God is mentioned specifically.

Even if that is true - and I'm not stipulating that it is - it doesn't mean they are "Christian states." The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (applied to the states through the Fourteenth) prohibits states from establishing official religions. The fifty states are officially secular, as is the United States.

JC/KJ - God loves you, Jesus Christ gave his life for yours.

Prove it.

I respect both inputs but can't figure out what they based their opinion's on.

My input consisted almost entirely of facts: the known religious affiliations of national figures, the texts of our founding documents, and the fact that millions of Americans are non-Christians and they are 100% American citizens, just like you. You are welcome to try and dispute those facts.

My Bible says, "By their fruits ye shall know them". All the names you referred to as being Christians, Obama/Biden/Ried and Pelosi will probably never convince me or any one else by their actions that they are anywhere close to being what you say they are.

Very interesting. My Bible says "judge not, that ye be not judged."

JC, your response to my post proves that you do NOT know what a Christian is. Just because you go to First Baptist or Trinity Church of Christ does not make you a Christian. Sadly many believe this and many die and go to Hell.

Prove it.

 

Article Comment Raymond Gross commented at 7/3/2009 1:03:00 PM:


"Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence:"

"Five were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes burned to the ground. Two lost sons serving in the Revolutionary Army, and two more had sons captured. Nine fought and died in the Revolutionary War.

If you ever feel like your lone voice can never be heard, that the political system isn't set up for "regular" Americans to change the course of history, remember: The signers were flesh and blood, mortal men with a divinely-inspired aim.

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists, eleven were merchants, and nine were farmers and large plantation owners. They were well educated, smart enough to know that by signing the Declaration of Independence, they were signing their own death warrants." Glen Beck
Happy 4th to everybody!

 

Article Comment JC commented at 7/4/2009 12:36:00 PM:

The question begs then, did the Supreme Court recognize the United States as a Christian nation?

Only in the sense that the United States is a nation in which there are many Christians, and in which Christianity is influential in public and private life. These are facts no one could deny.

In the case you cite, Justice Brewer highlighted these facts to make the point that it was not likely that Congress meant to prohibit foreign ministers from contracting to preach in the U.S. in a statute that otherwise prohibited "the importation and migration of foreigners and aliens under contract or agreement to perform labor in the United States."

No one denies that there are many Christians in America. But that does not make America "their" nation, to the exclusion of others.

 

Article Comment Raymond Gross commented at 7/4/2009 9:55:00 PM:

ONE LAST WORD:
The comments of 'Prove it' by someone on the blog reminds me of the rich man who died and in hell lifted up his eyes to see the begger with Abraham. The rich man said he was in torment and wanted to go back and warn his brothers. Abraham told him that they had the teachings of Moses and if they wouldn't BELIEVE them-they wouldn't believe someone coming back from the dead. So to continue saying you need proof of Christianity while rejecting the offer of salvation puts you in danger of hell fire and eternal seperation from God. That is the unforgivable sin, refusing to believe. Jesus said He stands at your hearts door and knocks , just waiting an invitation to come in. Will you ask Him to do that today?

 

Article Comment KJ commented at 7/5/2009 12:45:00 PM:

@believeit: It's apparent to me that if you believe that the deficit has ballooned from $! trillion to $10 trillion in 6 months, that you are completely uncredible. You are either very ignorant of the facts or an outright liar.

@Mr. Gross: For a man with so much service to our country, I would think that you would have a greater appreciation for the liberties undercut by the Bush administration following 9/11. Never has so much of our Constitution been shredded by one cowardly administration.

As for Jesus, I don't care what he did, what he was, or what anyone else thinks about him. I don't believe that Jesus was anything except an artificial construct devised by men who sought to control the thoughts and actions of others. One only has to look around today to see that, whatever he might have been, that's what he is today. I don't buy it. And I don't intend to. Believe what you want, You're welcome to do so. Leave me out of it. Just like many people don't want their tax dollars paying for abortions, I don't want mine subsidizing missions, church businesses (because they are businesses), religious education, or the indoctrination and brain washing of infants, toddlers, and children under 18. Many non-christians have fought and died for your rights throughout our history. One christian, GWB, took away our right to not be subjected to unreasonable search and seizure. One christian, GWB, took away habeas corpus and allowed for the indefinite imprisonment of American citizens without access to lawyers, evidence, or a chance to face their accusers in a court of law. One christian, GWB, implemented a program to torture human beings in violation of US law, international law, and US treaty obligations. So please forgive me if I don't ascribe very much moral weight or seriousness to people who attempt to claim "christianity" and use it as an ethical point in any argument. To me, it is meaningless babble and serves to indicate that no real reasons exist for the position held by someone with a differing viewpoint. Blind belief isn't a very effective rhetorical tool.

 

Article Comment observer commented at 7/5/2009 4:20:00 PM:

Mr Ray Gross - Amen!, to your comments. "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition".

 

Article Comment JC commented at 7/6/2009 11:40:00 AM:

So to continue saying you need proof of Christianity while rejecting the offer of salvation puts you in danger of hell fire and eternal seperation from God.

Prove it.

 

Article Comment KJ commented at 7/7/2009 1:55:00 PM:

A fine example, Mr. Gross, of why the US has not been, is not now, should not be, and will likely never be a "christian" nation.

 

Article Comment Observer 2 commented at 7/12/2009 2:24:00 PM:

Thanks to the dispatch and Mr. Gross for starting this . It has obviously caused JC and KJ to read the Bible. To JC- There is a difference in "knowing" someone by their fruits and judging someone. You can determine what someone believes by their actions better than by what he says. Judging is a whole different ball game. I'm sure Mr Gross understands that, why can't you?

 

Article Comment stevenalabama commented at 8/11/2009 7:40:00 PM:

The Founding Fathers' lack of Christian conviction was troubling to their contemporaries. In a July 4, 1798, sermon opposing Thomas Jefferson, Yale University president the Rev. Timothy Dwight warned Christians against supporting 'the philosophers, the atheists and the deists' in the election of 1800. Fortunately, the electorate ignored the Christian conservative pulpit.
In 1789, a group of New England ministers wrote to George Washington complaining that the Constitution lacked any reference to 'the only true God and Jesus Christ.
At the onset of the War of 1812, Timothy Dwight lamented, 'The Nation has offended Providence. We framed the Constitution without any acknowledgment of God; without any recognition of His mercies to us as a people, of His government, or even His existence. The Constitutional Convention, by which it was formed, never asked even once, His direction or His blessing upon their labors. Thus we condemned our national existence under the present system without God.'
The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It begins, "We the people," and contains no mention of "God" or "Christianity." Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" (Art. VI), and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment). The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase "so help me God" or any requirement to swear on a bible (Art. II, Sec. 1, Clause 8). If we are a Christian nation, why doesn't our Constitution say so?
In 1797 America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington's presidency, and approved by the Senate under John Adams.
The First Amendment To The U.S. Constitution:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."
What about the Declaration of Independence?
We are not governed by the Declaration. Its purpose was to "dissolve the political bands," not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based on the idea that "governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. It deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, and so on, never discussing religion at all.
The references to "Nature's God," "Creator," and "Divine Providence" in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Thomas Jefferson, its author, was a Deist, opposed to orthodox Christianity and the supernatural.
What about the Pilgrims and Puritans?
The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom. Fewer than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom. The secular United States of America was formed more than a century and a half later. If tradition requires us to return to the views of a few early settlers, why not adopt the polytheistic and natural beliefs of the Native Americans, the true founders of the continent at least 12,000 years earlier?
Most of the religious colonial governments excluded and persecuted those of the "wrong" faith. The framers of our Constitution in 1787 wanted no part of religious intolerance and bloodshed, wisely establishing the first government in history to separate church and state.
Do the words "separation of church and state" appear in the Constitution?
The phrase, "a wall of separation between church and state," was coined by President Thomas Jefferson in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, when they had asked him to explain the First Amendment. The Supreme Court, and lower courts, have used Jefferson's phrase repeatedly in major decisions upholding neutrality in matters of religion. The exact words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution; neither do "separation of powers," "interstate commerce," "right to privacy," and other phrases describing well-established constitutional principles.
What does "separation of church and state" mean?
Thomas Jefferson, explaining the phrase to the Danbury Baptists, said, "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions." Personal religious views are just that: personal. Our government has no right to promulgate religion or to interfere with private beliefs.
The Supreme Court has forged a three-part "Lemon test" (Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971) to determine if a law is permissible under the First-Amendment religion clauses.
1. A law must have a secular purpose.
2. It must have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits religion.
3. It must avoid excessive entanglement of church and state.
The separation of church and state is a wonderful American principle supported not only by minorities, such as Jews, Moslems, and unbelievers, but applauded by most Protestant churches that recognize that it has allowed religion to flourish in this nation. It keeps the majority from pressuring the minority.
What about majority rule?
America is one nation under a Constitution. Although the Constitution sets up a representative democracy, it specifically was amended with the Bill of Rights in 1791 to uphold individual and minority rights. On constitutional matters we do not have majority rule. For example, when the majority in certain localities voted to segregate blacks, this was declared illegal. The majority has no right to tyrannize the minority on matters such as race, gender, or religion.
Not only is it unAmerican for the government to promote religion, it is rude. Whenever a public official uses the office to advance religion, someone is offended. The wisest policy is one of neutrality.
Isn't removing religion from public places hostile to religion?
No one is deprived of worship in America. Tax-exempt churches and temples abound. The state has no say about private religious beliefs and practices, unless they endanger health or life. Our government represents all of the people, supported by dollars from a plurality of religious and non-religious taxpayers.
Some countries, such as the U.S.S.R., expressed hostility to religion. Others, such as Iran ("one nation under God"), have welded church and state. America wisely has taken the middle course--neither for nor against religion. Neutrality offends no one, and protects everyone.
The First Amendment deals with "Congress." Can't states make their own religious policies?
Under the "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment (ratified in 1868), the entire Bill of Rights applies to the states. No governor, mayor, sheriff, public school employee, or other public official may violate the human rights embodied in the Constitution. The government at all levels must respect the separation of church and state. Most state constitutions, in fact, contain language that is even stricter than the First Amendment, prohibiting the state from setting up a ministry, using tax dollars to promote religion, or interfering with freedom of conscience.
What about "One nation under God" and "In God We Trust?"
The words, "under God," did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them. Likewise, "In God We Trust" was absent from paper currency before 1956. It appeared on some coins earlier, as did other sundry phrases, such as "Mind Your Business." The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.
Isn't American law based on the Ten Commandments?
Not at all! The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law, and have existed in cultures long before Moses. If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse! The Supreme Court has ruled that posting the Ten Commandments in public schools is unconstitutional.
Our secular laws, based on the human principle of "justice for all," provide protection against crimes, and our civil government enforces them through a secular criminal justice system.

 

Article Comment melody commented at 8/13/2009 4:50:00 PM:

Don't ever forget what President Reagan said, "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We don't pass it on to our children in the bloodstream; freedom must be fought for, protected and handed on for them to do the same. And when we change from being one nation under God, we will be a nation gone under". From one of the greatest Presidents, gotcha. Trumps everything I've seen so far.

 

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